Jesus, The Liberal
July 28th 2008 00:04
">Disclaimer: This post is not designed to convert anyone, or spark a debate over whether or not God exists. My mission is to point out the flawed logic that Conservatives hold the key to Christianity. We'll examine what is known of Jesus from a Biblical standpoint, and refute the claims one cannot be a Liberal and still be a Christian.
It has happened to me a million times. It is the most frustrating thing in the world. I am engaged in a debate with a Conservative or a Republican, and before you know it, they whip out their "Christ Card" and say I am a Godless hack who is going straight to hell. When I explain that I am a Christian, there is generally a smug look or reply, and then.....like clockwork....they say, "You can't be a Christian and still be a Liberal." Boom! Conversation over, they will hear no more of what I have to say, and they turn away, feeling as though they once again have defeated the enemy on behalf of the righteous.
The saddest part for me is that with the prevailing logic being that the Conservative Party is the Party of Christ, no one really disputes it. They feel it is their Ace in the hole, and base their entire ideology and political stances around the fact that they own Christianity. In the meantime, they pervert the teachings of Jesus, and they use his name to justify their own hatred and greed.
I say, no more! I've had it, and although it may make me the lone voice in the wilderness, I feel that it is time to set the record straight. I'll no longer stand by and allow those with a limited understanding of Christianity to claim it as their own.
Fist, let's get the big two out of the way....homosexuality and abortion. Guess what? Christ never mentions them. Not once. Does that mean he supported them? Not necessarily. Does that mean he was against them? Not necessarily. What it does clearly display is that these two issues were pretty low on his agenda, as he spent his days spreading his message.
Many Conservatives site the following passage as evidence that Jesus DID speak about homosexuality:
Mark 7:20-23
20And he said, "It is what comes out of a person that defiles. 21For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
Well, I don't see it. I think you would probably have to use a pretty liberal (excuse the pun) interpretation of that passage to say that it shows Christ's "anti-gay" stance.
Abortion is even less clear. Many Fundamentalists will tell you that it is common knowledge to any believer that Abortion is a sin. This is not so. In fact, all throughout Christian History, there have been a wide array of viewpoints concerning abortion. From the 2nd Century CE TO 4th Century CE, the prevailing wisdom was that abortion was murder. From the 5th TO 16th Century CE, debate began to rage within the Church, as to whether or not Christ specifically condemned abortion in all cases. St. Jerome (circa 340 - 420) wrote in a letter to Aglasia:
Pope Innocent III (circa 1161-1216) stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life. Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591) determined "the quickening" happened 116 days into pregnancy (16˝ weeks).
I submit these points only to show that quite obviously the Biblical stance on abortion is not as cut and dry as some would have us believe. This is not to endorse abortion, or celebrate it, only to point out that Jesus was far more focused on other issues.
Here are some of the things Christ made absolutely clear:
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9]
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [Matthew 5:39]
I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute
you; [Matthew 5:44]
Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy [Matthew 5:7]
How would Jesus feel about corporate greed and the mega wealthy oil barons that Conservatives spend so much time defending?
In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other
sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [John 2:14 & 15.]
Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. [Luke 12.15.]
Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 19:23] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.[Matthew 19:24] (wow, he thought it was such an important point, he repeated it!)
How about the separation of Church and State?
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. [Matthew 22:21]
School Prayer and Public Religious displays??
And when thou pray, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in
the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.[Matthew 6:6]
When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. [Matthew 6:7]
What about Community?
Love your neighbor as yourself. .[Matthew 22:39]
So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you. [Matthew 7:12.]
If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. [Matthew 19:21]
Equality???
But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. [Luke 14:13 &14.]
I could go on, but this is getting extremely long.
Of course, it truly is not possible to put a modern political label on Jesus. I call him a Liberal only to outline the sheer hypocrisy of those who claim they have a direct pipeline to God. I find it terrifying that George W. Bush refers to the "War on Terror" as the "Ideological struggle of the 21st Century", particularly when it is clear that the current Conservative movement does not have a firm grasp on their own proclaimed ideology.
Believe what you will, but when you defend your politics using Jesus as your ally, it seems that it would stand to reason that your primary concerns would be those that Jesus himself spoke to. In the meantime, I am completely comfortable with calling myself Liberal.
It has happened to me a million times. It is the most frustrating thing in the world. I am engaged in a debate with a Conservative or a Republican, and before you know it, they whip out their "Christ Card" and say I am a Godless hack who is going straight to hell. When I explain that I am a Christian, there is generally a smug look or reply, and then.....like clockwork....they say, "You can't be a Christian and still be a Liberal." Boom! Conversation over, they will hear no more of what I have to say, and they turn away, feeling as though they once again have defeated the enemy on behalf of the righteous.
The saddest part for me is that with the prevailing logic being that the Conservative Party is the Party of Christ, no one really disputes it. They feel it is their Ace in the hole, and base their entire ideology and political stances around the fact that they own Christianity. In the meantime, they pervert the teachings of Jesus, and they use his name to justify their own hatred and greed.
I say, no more! I've had it, and although it may make me the lone voice in the wilderness, I feel that it is time to set the record straight. I'll no longer stand by and allow those with a limited understanding of Christianity to claim it as their own.
Fist, let's get the big two out of the way....homosexuality and abortion. Guess what? Christ never mentions them. Not once. Does that mean he supported them? Not necessarily. Does that mean he was against them? Not necessarily. What it does clearly display is that these two issues were pretty low on his agenda, as he spent his days spreading his message.
Many Conservatives site the following passage as evidence that Jesus DID speak about homosexuality:
Mark 7:20-23
20And he said, "It is what comes out of a person that defiles. 21For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, 22adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
Well, I don't see it. I think you would probably have to use a pretty liberal (excuse the pun) interpretation of that passage to say that it shows Christ's "anti-gay" stance.
Abortion is even less clear. Many Fundamentalists will tell you that it is common knowledge to any believer that Abortion is a sin. This is not so. In fact, all throughout Christian History, there have been a wide array of viewpoints concerning abortion. From the 2nd Century CE TO 4th Century CE, the prevailing wisdom was that abortion was murder. From the 5th TO 16th Century CE, debate began to rage within the Church, as to whether or not Christ specifically condemned abortion in all cases. St. Jerome (circa 340 - 420) wrote in a letter to Aglasia:
"The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs"
Pope Innocent III (circa 1161-1216) stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life. Pope Gregory XIV (1535-1591) determined "the quickening" happened 116 days into pregnancy (16˝ weeks).
I submit these points only to show that quite obviously the Biblical stance on abortion is not as cut and dry as some would have us believe. This is not to endorse abortion, or celebrate it, only to point out that Jesus was far more focused on other issues.
Here are some of the things Christ made absolutely clear:
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [Matthew 5:9]
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. [Matthew 5:39]
I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despite-fully use you, and persecute
you; [Matthew 5:44]
Do not judge, lest you too be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be measured to
you. [Matthew 7:1 & 2.]
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy [Matthew 5:7]
How would Jesus feel about corporate greed and the mega wealthy oil barons that Conservatives spend so much time defending?
In the temple courts [Jesus] found men selling cattle, sheep and doves and other
sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. [John 2:14 & 15.]
Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions. [Luke 12.15.]
Truly, I say unto you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. [Matthew 19:23] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.[Matthew 19:24] (wow, he thought it was such an important point, he repeated it!)
How about the separation of Church and State?
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. [Matthew 22:21]
School Prayer and Public Religious displays??
And when thou pray, thou shall not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in
the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.[Matthew 6:6]
When thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. [Matthew 6:7]
What about Community?
Love your neighbor as yourself. .[Matthew 22:39]
So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you. [Matthew 7:12.]
If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. [Matthew 19:21]
Equality???
But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just. [Luke 14:13 &14.]
I could go on, but this is getting extremely long.
Of course, it truly is not possible to put a modern political label on Jesus. I call him a Liberal only to outline the sheer hypocrisy of those who claim they have a direct pipeline to God. I find it terrifying that George W. Bush refers to the "War on Terror" as the "Ideological struggle of the 21st Century", particularly when it is clear that the current Conservative movement does not have a firm grasp on their own proclaimed ideology.
Believe what you will, but when you defend your politics using Jesus as your ally, it seems that it would stand to reason that your primary concerns would be those that Jesus himself spoke to. In the meantime, I am completely comfortable with calling myself Liberal.
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Comment by Norm
Consumption Malfunction
Equal and Opposite
Arses and Elbows
Footy Power
I'm thinking of reconverting my faith.
Do you have anything with aliens?
By the way, nice work.
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
Jack's Back
Comment by Natalie 2
My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog
"Now as I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel upon the earth beside the living creatures one for each of the four of them. As for the appearance of the wheels and their construction ... the four had the same likeness being as it were a wheel within a wheel. The four wheels had rims and they had spokes, and their rims were full of eyes round about. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them and when the living creatures went, the wheels went with them, for the living creature was in the wheel." Ezekiel 1
Hell yes we have aliens!!
Johnny, thanks for the compliment. Glad you liked it!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Cheryl J
Funny Videos
Rhythmatism
Zentertainment
Budget Centsability
I always thought the very basics of Christianity were charity and mercy and you don't hear much of that from the Conservatives.
I love that cartoon of the the Bush vs Jesus. That's bloody hilarious
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
it always pays to be open-minded and considerate, thats what Jesus would do!
Comment by Josie
Waxing Political
Unique Parent
Great start to your new blog too! I'll be reading it often I'm sure!
Comment by Jim Stillman
Political Certainty
As a self confessed -- and unabashed "liberal" -- I applaud you mightily!
Comment by Anonymous
I do not think anyone holds the key to Christianity except for The Bible itself. And in our interpretation of the treasures The Bible holds we must be selfLESS. That said, Jesus was born into time and place for a reason. He was Jewish. It is important to take biblical eschatology into account when looking at his recorded words. Some things is his time and culture were a given and didn't need to be explained. Also, even the medical communities have not understood the whole of reproduction until the last century. So looking at what historical figures have said about abortion really isn't relevant to whether abortion is actually murder of life or not.
I enjoyed your post and look forward to reading more. Thanks!
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
----------------------------- ----------------------------
Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV
Copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved
What God has created, do we have a right to destroy. I don't care one whit about about what some Pope said about it, the Bible makes it clear that we are created of God from conception.
Homosexuality: Christ never mentions it directly, but he does in the passage you quote mention adultery, wickedness and fornication. Fornication is sex outside of marriage. He also never says homosexuality is OK, but numerous other parts of the Bible call it sin. For instance:
Peace: Yes, Christ would have us have peace. But he never advocated letting evil thrive either. Was he peaceful in the temple in the next section you indicate? Seems like violence is sometimes necessary to protect the house of God. Now, America is not the house of God, but God did use war to protect His chosen people and the nation he created. Jesus nowhere advocates that if somebody is blowing up our women and children we are to look away.
Corporations, Wealth, Etc.: Liberals are just into wealth as Conservatives. This is not even a liberal/conservative issue. George Soros, Rev Wright, Obama, the Clintons, and numerous other "nefarious" rich people are liberals. The only difference between a rich liberal and a rich conservative is that the conservative wants to be able to choose who to help and the liberal wants the government to take from everybody and have bored bureaucrats protecting their kingdoms choose.
Separation of Church and State: Wow, talk about out of context quote. When Christ said to "render unto Caesar," it was because a listener asked about paying taxes. Christ said with that quote that since Caesar's face was on the coin (which you'd see if you actually read the context), it belonged to him.
The Constitution says nothing about separation of church and state. It only says that Congress shall not establish a state religion. The ACLU version of the 1st Amendment has elipses (or it did the last time I looked) to omit those words. Separation of Church and State is a purely manufactured lie that has become defacto by endless repetition. Read the 1st Amendment. The clear purpose of that passage is to specify that there would be no "Church of America" like the Church of England that force the Puritans to flee for their lives to America in the first place.
School Prayer and Religious Displays: Wow, out of context again. If you read the whole passage, He was preaching against not being fake with God. Christ was calling out those who prayed in the streets for the recognition of men and saying that prayer is a private conversation between you and God.
That being said, school prayer was each student spending time quietly with his God. No harm in that, because it wasn't mandatory which God you prayed to. Christ himself displayed His faith quite openly and publicly. If He had hid it, there wouldn't be so many historical documents backing up the events of the Bible.
Community: That's right, Christ advocated Christians get out there and help the poor, the widow and the orphan and the sick. Liberals have made sure that became the governments job and many Christians have left it to the governement. Maybe if taxes were lower, we could afford to do more for our neighbors . . . . I've worked in government, and let me tell you, they're just wasting the money. Of that dollar I could give to my local rescue mission, they only get 50 cents of it to the food stamp program.
Again, not a liberal/conservative thing. Christian conservatives don't want to ignore the poor, they just want the churches and their members to help them, not the government. Conservatives believe Christians and caring people do better than politicians. One of the best ways to help people find Christ is by helping them, and the liberals can't stand the idea of more people going to church.
Equality: Yup, Christ was one of the first to push equality, regardless of sex, race or disability. Heck, David's great-great-...-great-grandmo ther wasn't Jewish by birth (Ruth). And true Christians value equality. It was the twisted mind of human beings that said taking care of the home wasn't equal to providing for the family. It was the sinful mind of man that said preachers are more important and valuable in the church than the women praying over the sick. 1 Corinthians 12 would be a good chapter for you to read about how all roles in a church, a family and a community are equally valuable.
It's liberals that more often want to make me feel less equal because I only have a B.A. instead of Ph.D. That somehow makes me less smart, because I chose a different school/career path. Suddenly my knowledge of a subject they didn't get their Ph.D. in is suspect because I only have a B.A.
I treat the Jr. High dropout and multiple doctorate person with the same level of respect as children of God.
Did you know Jesus and Paul advocated socialism? Yes, within the church. Why within the church? Because the world is full of sin and socialism will not work if not all have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. In every attempt at socialism in the world, the government officials get richer and the rest are poor, because of greed and sin.
I'm for the things Christ believed in: Sex in marriage only (hey, you quoted the passage), no witchcraft (wickedness), no greed, no lust. The difference between a Christian conservative and a liberal: who does the caring. A conservative says the church on the corner and its members. A liberal says a bloated government agency. A Christian says the Bible sets the standards, a liberal says man can write his own rules and change them as society "evolves" so that everybody is "happy".
The fact that you have picked the passages and out of context quotes out of the Bible to fit your world view tells me that you may believe in Christ, but you don't know Him. Cult leaders and other attackers of the faith have done the same thing for 2000 years. I can pick out of context passages and quotes to justify sex with teens (Koresh, FLDS), commit murder (Jim Jones, violent abortion opponents), and a host of other things. However, where do we get the idea that those things are wrong? From the whole of the Bible.
Take the whole thing, in context. I could go on and on here. The Bible is consistent when discussing homosexuality, the sanctity of life, the times for taking human life (Ecclesiastes 3), sex outside of marriage, greed, lying, theft, and everything else. Sometimes the punishment for those things changes, but the definition of what is sin doesn't.
That same Bible you quote Christ as a man of peace and pull out his words out of context, also says Christ will come on a horse with a tongue like a sword and slay the millions of people in the Anti-Christ's army with a host of angels behind him, and then with great sadness send their souls to Hell for all eternity because they refused to accept his free gift of life. So, before you try to defend your sinful world view, and try to take comfort in a Christ of your own design, maybe you better read and understand all of it, as His child, having accepted that He is your only way to salvation.
I'll pray for you Natalie.
Comment by Natalie 2
My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog
I would like to make a remark to Jonathan.
Thank you for stopping by and providing your detailed rebuttal to this post. I truly do appreciate all of the documentation that you provided.
First, I would like to make clear that with regards to abortion and homosexuality, I never provided a stance, nor did I presume to know what Christ thought of the issues. My point was that these were not mentioned in his teachings, and therefore I am frustrated with those two issues being the primary focus of a large amount of Conservatives.
My focus on the history is not to put the words of man over the words of Jesus. Only to illustrate that there has been a great amount of debate regarding abortion, even from great religious leaders.
As to your quotes from Romans regarding Homosexuality, I believe as do many Biblical scholars that much of the Old Testament was speaking to previously established civil law of the time, and that when Christ came we were free from the old law, and were now to adhere to Christ's law.
Paul stated repeatedly that Christians are not under the Old Testament Law. For example in Galatians 2:15–16 he wrote, "A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ." In Romans 7:4 Paul stated, "You also died to the law through the body of Christ." In Galatians 3:25 he declared, "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." Paul argued vigorously against Christians returning to the Old Testament Law.
Do you adhere to the following Laws?
"Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk," Exod. 34:26; "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material," Lev. 19:19; "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear," Deut. 22:12 "The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses," Deut. 14:8, "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." Deuteronomy 15:1.
With regards to War, I do not believe that Jesus, based on all of his teachings, would endorse a war that was based on false pretenses and poor judgement. I do not believe that he would endorse the slaughter of thousands of Iraqi civilians in our quest to occupy their nation. Should we defend ourselves? Yes. Should we use evils done to us as an excuse to bring evil to others? Certainly not. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Overall, my claim is not that any one party owns Christ. Although I mostly define my views as Liberal, I am not apologist for Democrats. All of the points that you made regarding the wealth, greed, and corruption on both sides are accurate.
To the contrary of your claim that I've created a Christ of my own design, I have actually tried to know Christ better by reading His words and His commands, and following His example, and trying to be myself more Christ-like. I am an imperfect sinner, that is true, and I claim no superior knowledge of His will.
While I resent being compared to cult leaders such as Koresh and Jim Jones, I thank you for not questioning my Faith. I also thank you for your prayers. I will pray for you as well.
Comment by Summer Minor
Kitten Politics
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Natalie 2
My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog
Remember what Sinclair Lewis said:
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross."
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
I'm deeply offended that anybody would say that the Christian right doesn't care about the poor and hunger. Christians are instructed to love EVERY person, even if we don't approve of their sins.
It was Christians that led the fight to end slavery.
And EVERY value we have regarding caring for the sick and the poor, the equality of people regardless of financial or health status, the sanctity of human life is UNIQUELY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN. NO OTHER ancient or current society values these things that isn't founded on Christianity.
Every moral you claim such a high ground on as not needing the Bible to maintain, you wouldn't have without the Bible. Judeo-Christian values are the moral foundation of our society. If we had the values of the ancient Greeks, we'd still have slaves, treat people good or bad based on their wealth, toss the sick aside. If we had the values of the Persians we'd have brought back the heads of fallen Iraqis on pikes and performed sacrifices.
Jesus will come back as a warrior. It's what the Bible says. But that's what I'm talking about. You've taken Jesus and pulled out what you want of him, ignoring what you don't like. He came to die for us on the cross with a free gift of salvation, but he comes back a warrior. It's in the Bible.
Imagine you played major league baseball, and you decided you wanted to use an aluminum bat. The umpire tells you that's against the rules, but you tell him you didn't read that part and the rules you did read didn't mention it. You think the umpire would just say "Oh, you missed that part of the rulebook? Swing away!" No. Same with the Bible. You can't pick and choose the things from God's rulebook that you like and leave the rest.
Jesus spoke of hell three times as often as he spoke of heaven. He drove out the money changers. He cursed a fig tree so it wilted and died. He called the Pharisees and Saducces hypocrites and accused them of sending people to hell. So all you three are doing is showing your ignorance of the Bible.
Nobody cares more deeply or feels more equally burdened by the plight of the poor, the alone, the lost and the sick then true Christians. Our relationship with Christ makes us ache for them. My father is gay, and I love him, but I disapprove of his lifestyle. I will care for him in his old age if he is back in the U.S. when he needs it. I will continue to pray for him. But I won't condone his sin.
I won't get into a debate on the Iraq war. Maybe I'll post on it soon, you can read my opinion on it there.
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
Trusting in the wisdom of men will get you nowhere. Trusting Sinclair Lewis for your theology is like trusting the Manson family with your daughter.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
And no, as an Atheist, I can't speak to people picking and choosing the parts of the bible they like, as I don't choose any of it. To use your baseball analogy, I don't want to use an aluminum bat. I don't want to play the damn game. And according to your mythology, that means I am scheduled to recieve genocide.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
Natalie, you should read my post (CLICKHERE for "the Rule of Nazi Analogies and Reductio Ad Hitlerum")
i dont understand why some Christians believe they are the only culture to have morals or be charitable . . . its just so rude and ignorant
there are Christian people who do marvelous charity work, and then there are Christian people that are completely selfish and manipulative . . . benevolence is not a Christian trait, its a human trait, and Christians dont have it in any greater proportion than any other people on the planet
if America is an example of non-discriminating Christian charity then why is there a whole under-class of low-income American citizens who are prevented from accessing health care - a basic human right?
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
As for respecting civil liberties? He was another Nixon when it came to wiretapping.
Please, I hope I never see another liberal claim for Jesus and whitewashing of St. John when his personal life made Bill Clinton look like an altar boy. Clinton messed up big-time, but he never got in bed (repeatedly) with a mobster's moll or used his illnesses as cover for his repeated acts of ...
Mark 7:20-23
Oh, and I forgot, attempted murder. That was JFK's record. If you really want to have a more genuine Christlike liberal to follow, try Tip O'Neill. His views are clearly stated in the epilogue of "Man Of The House."
That man was a real liberal and he never besmirched his values and most importantly, his many years of marriage to his wife Millie. And unlike Kennedy, he was never unhinged by the sin of pride whereas O'Neill, (who succeeded O'Neill in the same district) never let his head outgrow his hatsize.
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Comment by S.L.
The Political Brief
Check this one out if you think Jesus was a liberal.
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
Find me an ancient civilization, other than Judeo-Christian, or even a modern civilization, that is atheist and holds to our morals.
Recent atheist civilizations:
Soviet Union - Millions killed, religious and other freedoms like speech suppressed.
Maoist
North Korea
Khmer Rouge
On and on.
Can you name a society where people were treated with equal love regardless of who their parents were, how much wealth they possessed, their health, etc. Name a moral belief Americans hold true to that didn't come out of Judeo-Christian morals.
You want to be an atheist? If I'm right you'll wish you weren't. If I'm wrong, I won't care, will I!
Comment by Natalie 2
My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog
I don't know where to begin...let's see...Anon. thanks. But I wasn't trying to deify JFK...I just like the quote
I really liked your blog about Nazi analogies, Morgan, I left you a comment there as well.
Thanks for your comments, Jeff and Summer! I agree with you Jeff that Sinclair Lewis was way ahead of his time.
I guess the rest goes to Jonathan and S.L. Thanks to both of you for participating in the conversation here. I have no desire to battle over some points as there are just some things we won't see eye to eye on.
But I do want to address a couple of key issues. FIrst of all, whoopsies about putting Romans in the wrong book. Consider me corrected. That was a really stupid mistake on my part.
I'm deeply offended that anybody would say that the Christian right doesn't care about the poor and hunger. Christians are instructed to love EVERY person, even if we don't approve of their sins.
My goodness, I never said that the Christian rights doesn't care about these things. In fact, I would go as far as to say that most of them do. I also do not think that all Liberals do the right things when it comes to "the least of these". I refer mainly to the leadership of the Conservative movement, as they seem to have lost their way and in the eyes of many have become more concerned with amassing wealth than with sharing it. Truly, I don't believe it is necessarily bad for people to be wealthy. It is when there isn't enough left for everyone else that it becomes a sin.
It seems that you interpret everything that I say as my gospel. When I quote Sinclair Lewis, you say, "Trusting Sinclair Lewis for your theology is like trusting the Manson family with your daughter." Jeez, I just think he had a unique and interesting point of view, that's all. I don't think that Jesus would say that we can't find any inspiration in our fellow man. I don't worship the guy.
Listen, I don't make assumptions about your intentions or feelings toward others. I am sure you are a compassionate person. Both Jonathan and S.L. have twisted my words while claiming that it was I who did the twisting. I made no claim of moral authority. And I made no claim that all Liberals are awsome! I certainly never said the Liberal philosophy was based on the Bible, as S.L. claims. I also never said anything about Jesus' return. I'm sure he will return to smite the wicked and all of that....how does that change his message about how we are supposed to treat one another? How does that justify anything less than ...
"For I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me."
[...]
"Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it
to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me."
This is what Jesus requires of us. In my humble understanding.
Specifically to S.L. I did read the link you provided. It seems to argue heavily in favor of the concept that Jesus wants us to adhere strictly to the Law of the Old Testament. But...
Hebrews 10:9: …He took away the first covenant to establish the second.
Hebrews 8:13: In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 7:18-19: A former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law made nothing perfect; but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Hebrews 8:6-7: Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better than the old covenant, since it is founded on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Hebrews 7:22: This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Hebrews 9:15: He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant…
Galatians 3:13: Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Colossians 2:14: Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
2 Corinthians 3:5-6: …our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Romans 7:4-6: Therefore, you also have become dead to the law through Christ… Now that we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
John 1:17: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Luke 16:16: The law and the prophets reigned until the time of John: and since that time, the kingdom of God is preached, and every man strives to go in.
I agree that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophesies, and that is what the information provided by Truth B. Told says. However, I think it is a mistake to cling so dearly to the OT, when Jesus himself repealed many of the Laws.
Good debate all around.
Comment by Johnny Come Lately
Jack's Back
Natalie I like the way you think for yourself and hold true to your own understanding of what you believe God wants.
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
It wasn't you who suggested Christians don't care. I won't bother to go through the other posts. The poster tried to suggest Liberals have the corner on caring.
Every year, under both Liberal and Conservative administrations, government agencies release statistics on what things in our society cost us. Out of wedlock pregnancy, fatherless households (by divorce or the cohabitation ending), STDs, white collar crime, prostitution, etc. all cost us billions of dollars a year as taxpayers taking care of people who broke God's rules.
They should be taken care of, but if we fought harder for marriage alone, and cut the divorce rate in half, as marriage ministries have done in community after community, we would save taxpayers $375 Billion dollars a year (a government study just proved that divorce costs taxpayers $750 Billion a year). That would nearly erase our annual national debt, just by placing more emphasis and value on marriage. Divorce and becoming a single parent by live-ins leaving is the number one cause of poverty in America.
This is just one example. The principles of the Bible do apply today, even 2000 years later. The costs of not doing it are largely hidden, but there is a cost. Did you know so much of your tax dollars went to the result of divorce and couples with kids splitting?
A society that truly follows all the morals and principles laid out in the Bible does not cast aside its sick, its poor, its orphans and its lonely. But there are fewer of them, way fewer.
There has never been a fully Biblical society, and there won't be until Heaven. Man's values and sins always get in the way. Because of that, casting Jesus fitting in one way or the other is dangerous. It's just as dangerous to mold him into who you want to him to be to make yourself feel good.
Personally, being a Christian with the boundaries I have is the freedom I always sought when I was younger. I hope you can all find that freedom, of knowing what boundaries will help you stay at peace with your life.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
*it is "disgraceful" for a woman to speak in a congregation.
*the man is the head of a woman.
*the woman must have a sign of authority on her head.
doesn't sound like freedom to me.
Also Jonathan, how do you explain that, according to the bible, when a Canaanite woman pleaded with Jesus for an exorcism, he cast her aside telling her that he 'would not waste his time on a non-Jew'?
You seem to know your bible fairly well. i'm sure you know what i am talking about.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
modern day Japan and Taiwan come to mind as countries with health systems that include the poor and give equal access to medical care regardless of wealth
neither of those countries have a state religion, Japan has religious history of Buddhism and Shinto, Taiwan is very diverse with Buddhism and Taoism being popular and Confucianism, Bahai, and Islam contibuting to the culture
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
And another thing - your code language gives you away. The religious right loves to speak of "freedom" and "liberty." What they mean is the freedom to be like them, and the liberty to follow theocracy. The more religious a society, the less freedom and liberty. Always.
Comment by RevHead
Why do you have to come and hijack this blogg with your feminist crap... yes Rev the "masculinist" is back.. Man is No1 in this world...everywhere....accept it...don't fight it.....surrender... yield...give in
On a more serious note..your Canaanite reference.... I can understand Jesus treating a woman that way... I can.... I get it.... I really do.....she's a second class citizen. But what does Jesus do next...heals her daughter... WHAT THE!!!!!! Go figure
"give me your eyes
that I might see...the blind man kissing my hand"
Comment by Edward 4
Shout Politics
The Hospital Blues
Painting in a Cave
Comment by MomsInTheRight
Rev, I'm really hoping you are trying to be funny. It is true that men and women are different and were created differently, but both sexes are equally important to God.
Comment by Jonathan Biviano
Politics Realm
Japan and Taiwan did not start doing those things out of religious morality. Before their exposure to "Western", aka Judeo-Christian, societies, they did have class societies where each class had to take care of their own.
I don't expect those of you calling it "freedom to be like them" etc to understand the freedom I have until you have it. But I don't want a theocracy. I'm even against abortion laws, as you can't legislate morality. I'm only for us not being silenced because of our beliefs. Comments are no place to into the laws and censorship Christians have directed specifically at them every day, like the hate speech resolutions in San Francisco (FranSicko).
Nice debate here, but I don't believe for a second my words will change you alone. I know it takes more than that.
Comment by Natalie 2
My Life My Muse
Beta Girl Blog
Now, I do not believe that the Bible should be called hate speech. Even if some are offended by the content. It is a slippery slope, because most religious texts stand to offend someone. I'm totally with you on that. But it will never happen. The U.S. was founded on Freedom of religion, not freedom from Religion, and everyone is entitled to express themselves.
In the public square however, it is a different matter. I'm referring to Government sanctioned religious expressions. For example, how is an Athiest supposed to feel that they will get a fair shake in a court of law that is embellished with Christian decor?
As for America's moral superiority with our Judeo-Christian ethic....we are quickly going the way of the Roman empire. And the neo-conservatives are the ones who are leading us there most quickly with their calls to limit our civil liberties and prop up the executive branch to dictatorial levels...but that is the subject for my next post....stay tuned
Comment by MomsInTheRight
We legislate morality all the time. There are laws against murder and theft for instance. Those are moral issues. We legislate morals when they impact another person - except for Abortion. I personally think we should legislate Abortion much more than we do. Either we as a nation have respect for human life or we don't.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Deep Pencil
Current Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
Comment by RevHead
I've had some friendly banter with Ruby and Co before on her Mysogenic Bible blog, and the whole equality thing was done to death over there. Jonathon re-emphasized it again here but Ruby felt compelled to drag it out here again.
I hope she has a chuckle when she reads it. No malice intended.
I've enjoyed reading this debate. Nat and Jonathan trading christian text with a dose of "left field" thrown in from those with alternatives views. It helps strengthen my faith.
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Timothy Powell
subjective determinist
Bad men
meditations while in genetics lectures
Comment by DeAnne
Public Journalist
Weight Loss Woman
Simple Gift Guide
Blogging American